In this week’s episode of The Envelope video podcast, “Baby Reindeer” breakout Nava Mau opens up about drawing courage from Netflix’s viral hit and “Shōgun” star Hiroyuki Sanada describes how becoming a producer remade him as an actor.
Yvonne Villarreal: Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Envelope podcast. My name is Yvonne Villarreal and I’m joined here today by my colleagues.
Mark Olsen: Mark Olsen.
Shawn Finnie: And Shawn Finnie.
Villarreal: And today we have two guests that were part of these shows that were epic in scope and also epic in the cultural conversation that they ignited. Mark, why don’t you tell us who you spoke with.
Olsen: I spoke to Nava Mau from the show “Baby Reindeer.” And, you know, I think when that show came on to Netflix, when it went live on the site, it wasn’t with a lot of fanfare or expectation. Yvonne, you can probably speak to the power of the Netflix recommendation engine, but it seemed like, in an organic way people really did just discover this show and built it to be one of the most-watched series in the life of Netflix. It was created by, written by and stars Richard Gadd. It’s based on sort of real-life events that happened to him. It’s about a struggling comedian in London who begins to be stalked by this woman who comes in the bar where he works, and it brings up a lot of issues from his past. And kind of parallel to that, he’s also launching into this new relationship with a trans therapist named Teri, and that’s the character played by Nava Mau. The character of Teri and Nava’s performance provides this really grounding center to the show and like an earthy realness as the show kind of goes on some really wild twists and turns. And it’s been a real breakthrough for Nava as a performer. Up until now she’s been in smaller projects, a lot of them self-generated. This has made her the first trans performer nominated in the supporting actress in a limited or anthology series or movie category.
Villarreal: She’s sort of getting on people’s radar. She’s next going to be in the new season of “You” on Netflix.
Finnie: Oh, she’s in the the next season of “You”? Yeah. That recommendation we talked about — powerful.
Villarreal: They’re coming for you. The algorithm.
Olsen: What about you, Shawn? Who did you talk to?
Finnie: I spoke to the legendary Hiroyuki Sanada, who plays Yoshii Toranaga in “Shōgun.” “Shōgun” is so beautiful. It’s so beautifully shot, but it’s really focused on love, power and war. And he plays the leader of the expansive Kanto region adapted from the book. Then there was an ’80 series. And then now we have the new “Shōgun,” which made history being, I think, over 70% Japanese, at the Emmys. And that had never happened before to receive that many nominations. And also just his career and his life — he’s been in over 50 series and 50 movies over a 50-year career. I think he started in 1966. And so one of the questions that I asked him was like, “I can obviously ask you like, what has changed since 1966, in terms of how you approach characters?” But I asked him, “What has stayed the same?” And his answer, I really appreciate it, which kind of gave like the full scope, and just his general and genuine excitement of this. And it’s always incredible when you see and feel their excitement about the nomination, but also just about what it means in the cultural zeitgeist.
Villarreal: In 20 years I’m going to ask you what has stayed the same given your success, so start prepping your answer.
Finnie: I’m prepping now.
Villareal: Okay. Get ready. But first, Mark’s interview with Nava Mau, after the break.
Mark Olsen: For the Los Angeles Times and The Envelope podcast. I’m Mark Olsen, and I’m here today with Nava Mau from the show “Baby Reindeer.” Thank you so much for joining us.
Nava Mau: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so happy to be here.
Olsen: When the show first came on to Netflix it was with relatively little fanfare or expectation. And almost from the moment it went on the site, people were finding it very quickly, and I believe it’s among the most watched shows ever on the platform. What was it like go through that moment, to have people discover the show in the way that they did?
Mau: It was unbelievable. I mean, I don’t think any of us expected that it would reach as many people as it has. It was kind of like I woke up and I realized I was on a plane and the plane had already left. And then I just had to see where the plane was taking me.
Olsen: What is it that you think people are responding to? Why do you think people have had such enthusiasm for the show?
Mau: I mean, there’s so much in the show for people to latch onto and to connect with. Obviously there’s Richard’s story, which I think is the heart of the show. And also what is so beautiful about the series is that Richard’s writing really cast the other characters in this same light of vulnerability. And I think that we can see different parts of ourselves in all the characters. And so I know I felt that way reading the script, and I think that audiences have felt the same way.
Olsen: And then were you surprised that there was so much attention to the real story and so much curiosity about who was the real Martha?
Mau: Yeah, I hadn’t even thought about that because for me it was the script, this phenomenal script, and then the experience of working together on what really felt like a process of discovery and connection. It felt like it was a process of release, when we were filming. And so the characters were the characters that lived on set and the script and now live on screen. So to me, that’s what I think of when I think of the show. So I really was very surprised.
Olsen: So is there a real Teri? Was that a conversation you ever even had with Richard?
Mau: She’s based on somebody that Richard dated, during that time in his life. So she’s out there somewhere.
Olsen: When people talk to you about the show, fans, I can only imagine those conversations probably very quickly get very intense and very personal. What has it been like for you to receive that?
Mau: I think I’m used to maybe receiving a lot of intensity and I’ve worked with survivors of violence before I started acting. I was a counselor. And so I have a lot of experience with holding space for people’s trauma and for it to be something that we’re relating to. I think that that is actually what has drawn me to acting and filmmaking, is that I am invested in stories about healing. I’m invested in stories that are unafraid to confront trauma and shame. And so to me, the whole point of being a part of something like “Baby Reindeer” is so that people engage with the topics in the show and that people engage with it in their own language, with their own people and in their own communities. So it’s been an honor to get to engage in that conversation.
Olsen: And is that what appealed to you when you first read the script? What was it that you connected with about the about the character?
Mau: I just remember feeling like I was already part of the world in the script that I was reading. It was very familiar and I think that feeling is rare, for me at least. I don’t know that I’d ever seen writing that felt like it had come from a place of actually knowing a trans woman, let alone having loved a trans woman, and that depicted the dynamics that I’m very familiar with when it comes to dating as a trans woman, and how that comes with walls of shame. And it just was so courageous in confronting that from the perspective of really like the other side. I don’t know that I ever really even had a conversation with a cis man who could speak to that perspective in real life. And so to see it in a script and that it’s going to be a series and there’s maybe a role for me, it was surreal.
Olsen: Because do you often feel like that you get scripts that don’t have that? Is it a struggle for you as a performer that you’re looking for a certain kind of role that just doesn’t exist for you?
Mau: Well, yeah, of course. I always assumed that I was going to have to write my own roles. And then acting kind of started to take off, and the ball kind of kept rolling, and it was like, OK, maybe there’s a few here and there. And I just never imagined that anyone would ever have had someone like me in mind for something that they were writing. You know, “Baby Reindeer” is the second series I’ve ever been on. And it’s also like the only callback I’ve ever had, aside from the other role that I was cast on. So to me, it just was like, the world was shifting in that moment, that I saw that maybe this was a possibility.
Olsen: I saw in another interview that you did where you talked about how you feel like a lot of times you’re put in this position of having these kind of baseline conversations about trans representation and that there’s other conversations, other aspects of your life, both on and off screen, that don’t get addressed. What are the conversations that you feel like you’re not having?
Mau: That used to be the case, maybe more before “Baby Reindeer” came out. I think that, honestly, a lot of the journalists that I’ve been talking to have had great questions. Maybe what I was speaking to in the past was that so often trans characters have been placed within stories simply as a token of representation or simply to color in the background, to make other characters appear more colorful, when in fact it’s actually the trans character that is bringing that life into the story. And it’s because trans people have such rich interior lives and social networks and complex lived experiences. And there’s so much to draw from. And it’s rare, I think, for a script to reflect that reality. So, I think that’s maybe what I meant in the past, but I actually feel like it’s been beautiful to get to talk about the story and the difficult parts of it as well.
Olsen: One of the things I appreciate so much about the character and your performance is that Teri is so grounded and centered, like she really knows who she is. You have a great line early on where she says, “I’m not hiding from anyone.” And is that something that appealed to you about her as well?
Mau: Yes. Also, it was something that was very challenging and I was a little afraid of, because at least at the time, when I was first coming to the role and preparing to film, I was not like Teri. I am anxious and can have a lot of self-doubt. And I have fallen hard and it’s been a struggle to get back up. So to see a character like Teri who seemed to have it all together and seemed to always know what to say and what she needs in every moment, and is not afraid of that need and she’s not afraid of her emotions, it was daunting. So I had to really figure out that internal structure that I think she has, that allows for that level of confidence. And I think now I do have that to fall back on as well, thanks to Teri.
Olsen: The performance goes to some very dark moments. Specifically, I’m thinking of when Martha the stalker attacks Teri. Had you ever performed a scene quite like that before?
Mau: No, absolutely not. I did not know if I was going to be able to pull it off. I knew how important that scene was for the story. In reading the screenplay, Richard’s writing, I also knew exactly what it meant for [Gadd’s chacracter] Donny, and in his perspective, and so there was a lot weighing on that scene and really that final shot. So I felt a lot of responsibility, and I was scared to do it. So I tried my best and prepared and prepared and prepared and I think by the time we got to film it, I just got to let go and go as far as it needed to go.
Olsen: And what did you do to prepare for it? How did you get yourself to that place you needed to be?
Mau: It was kind of like building like a house. Teri’s backstory, her family, the relationship with Donny, her previous relationships, really paying attention to the words that Martha was saying, the racism, the transphobia, the physical attack. And kind of like having all of those situated in my mind because it happened so fast that I knew that on set, I would not have time to be figuring it all out. The house needed to be built, so that as I run through it, everything’s already in place. And when Teri’s on the floor and everything is smashed to pieces, I can kind of recognize all the pieces. So that was the mental prep.I came to set with these little note cards. I was trying to remember what I wrote on all of them. It was four note cards, but each one of them was a question that Teri would be asking herself after the attack, because I think when something like that happens to you, your whole sense of reality is shaken and you kind of have to figure out what you can hold on to now that you’re literally on the floor. I did give them to a PA and I remember right before we did that final shot I asked her, I was like, “I need the note cards, I need the note cards,” And everyone was like, “No, don’t mess up the scene.” And I was like, “No, no, no, trust me, we need the note cards.” It worked, I guess.
Olsen: That scene is followed by a scene between Teri and Donny where Teri’s talking about what that attack meant to her. And in some ways, the emotions of that scene struck me that it might almost have been as difficult or more difficult than the actual attack. How did you find doing that second scene with Donny?
Mau: That one was another one where it was actually multiple days that we were in that room. That was the only scene that we did on a soundstage for me. And I just had to be so depressed, because time had passed in the story to where I knew that Teri had been in this state for like weeks now, potentially. I actually was having the best day. I think there’s a picture of me from that day and I’m like flying. And then I had to remind myself what it feels like to be depressed. So luckily I had that in my arsenal. I know what that feels like. So I landed on recalling the physicality of it. It’s not so much the mentality, the thoughts or the emotions. It’s actually in a state of depression, there’s like a cellular contraction, like your muscles are tight and it just feels like everything’s heavy and your eyes are tired and you just kind of want to fall into the ground and never come back out. And so I had to stick to that physical feeling. I just knew how important it was.
Olsen: The character is a therapist. And so on the one hand, she has a vocabulary and an ability to understand emotions and to understand behaviors and that makes her such an interesting point of focus in the series. She always kind of reads what everybody else is doing so clearly. And as you mentioned, you yourself have worked as a counselor. Did that help you in understanding the character? In those moments when Teri is in her therapy mind, did you feel like you understood where she was coming from?
Mau: That’s so funny. That’s taking me back. I do work with an acting coach for all my roles. And it’s such an incredible process whenever we work together. And that was one of the things that we kind of came up with — “the light switch” is what we called it, of Teri the therapist and Teri the seductress. And so they don’t really mix. That’s what I kind of realized, she’s kind of in one mode or the other and sometimes she’s kind of flipping back and forth. That was something that I had to find was the therapy mode. Maybe I had a cheat code because I was a counselor once upon a time, and I know what it is like to be in a room one-on-one with somebody who’s really deeply struggling and maybe has never been able to share with somebody. There’s little counseling tricks. Validating someone’s emotions I think is very important. And exploring options is another strategy. So it’s not posing any leading questions, not expressing any judgment. And I think that that creates space for somebody to feel safe in opening up. I won’t say more because that might get into FBI interrogator territory.
Olsen: Up until now in your career, you’ve done a lot of work that you’ve self-generated. You’ve written, directed and starred in a number of short films that you’ve made. What does that do for you when you get a job just a performer? Is it hard for you to sort of give up that agency and responsibility?
Mau: No, I love it. I actually think that I’ve enjoyed acting the most in other people’s writing. It has to be good, but I think there’s this stretch that happens in me trying to become this person that somebody else has created or somebody else has known from their life. And I think that’s a very interesting kind of friction that can happen, especially when I do have traits that are actually opposite to the character. I think that’s the most fascinating is when an actor has traits that are opposite to the character they’re playing — that I think creates an electricity onscreen. And so I’ve always really enjoyed it. I love being directed. I love to be part of the project in whatever way the project needs me to be a part of it. So when I’m a writer-director, it’s because that story needed to come out of me. And that’s the process that it called for. I’ve produced other people’s passion projects, and it’s always an honor to support somebody in telling their story. And I just feel the same way when I’m acting, that it’s a privilege. It’s an honor to to be a part of the story.
Olsen: Because your most recent short, “All the Words but the One,” as I understand it, you shot after you had done “Baby Reindeer.” Was there anything that you learned from “Baby Reindeer” that you were able to take back to your own work?
Mau: Those projects kind of live in the same cycle. They kind of ping-pong back and forth because I wrote it before I got cast on “Baby Reindeer.” Then I was cast on “Baby Reindeer.” And then I kind of started working on pre-pro[duction] a little bit for the short, and then I filmed “Baby Reindeer.” And then I came back and went right into filming [the short]. And so they did live in the same place in my heart. I needed to play Teri and I needed to make this film. I’ve been through some things, and I think that often we don’t realize that we’re still carrying it. And so I’ve found the blessing of working in film and TV as a way to process. It’s almost like I found the courage. I felt what it’s like to fly on “Baby Reindeer,” when we were filming. And that actually comes from letting go. So on set for “All the Words but the One,” I actually didn’t watch a lot of playback. I didn’t ask for too many takes for my own performance. I told the actors there’s not a right way. It’s actually that we just need to see what happens and we need to have options. And then in the edit we’re going to see what happens. And we’re going to look at the options. And so if you’re too fixated on getting it right or doing it a certain type of way, you don’t get to fly. So I think that I wouldn’t have quite known what it actually feels like to get there if I hadn’t done “Baby Reindeer.”
Olsen: Given how raw this work has been for you, what does it mean to then see your performance in “Baby Reindeer” be recognized in the way that it has, to be nominated for an Emmy?
Mau: I don’t even really understand it. In terms of the scale or the history of it, I’m reminded when other people express how much the work has affected them, how they’re inspired in their own work and in their own lives. It’s so cliche, but I’m waiting to see if I’m going to wake up and it just was all a dream. I think for me, it really is about the process and the collaboration. And so to be recognized by people who also do this kind of work, it’s just an honor. And I’m very grateful for it.
Olsen: Has the role and the recognition opened some doors for you? Whether it’s offers for other roles or for your own work to maybe get some funding or open doors for you. Has the recognition for the show done some new things for you?
Mau: Doors are open and I’ve been able to meet some amazing people. And I’m feeling very personally inspired to revisit some dreams that maybe I felt were too big. But I still have to step through the door. We still have to see who else is in that room. Just because the door is open doesn’t mean that the work has been done.
Olsen: Because I’ve always thought that must be such a challenge, when you feel like you’re in a moment, to know the best way to take advantage of it, to capitalize on it. What’s the most productive way to move forward through it?
Mau: I have decided just to stay on the ride right now. I tend to be a very grounded, earthly being. And I have embraced that there is so much happening and so much change that has occurred very quickly and will continue to occur. So I just need to embrace being up on the ride for a little bit and I’ll know when it’s time to land.
Olsen: I certainly am excited to see where the ride takes you. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Mau: Thank you so much for having me.
Shawn Finnie: Hiroyuki Sanada, you have been, I believe, in global cinema and cultural conversation in over 50 series and 50 films, for 50 years. When you hear that, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
Sanada: Actually, I started modeling when I was 4 years old. And the child actors school called my mom and [asked], “Does he fancy doing acting, TV or movie?” And I said “Yes!” And then I started, you know, training for acting when I was 5. And just six months later, I got to audition, and then I took the first role in my life for the movie. It was “Son of the Yakuza.” Black and white. It was 1965. So, that was my first movie. I was interested in acting on set. So I wanted to continue forever.
Finnie: Did you think it would be that it would carry you here to now, that it would be that stretch this amount of time?
Sanada: I could never have imagined when I was a kid. But I was always watching Hollywood movies, European movies. So I started thinking, “I want to work with them in the future.” Then I started training — you know, dancing, singing, acting, and then martial arts as an actor. So, you know, just dreaming. And sometimes I went to New York and London, watching plays, musicals and [thinking] where the level is, [versus] where is Japan now, where am I now, what I need to do for the future if I want to work with them. And then finally, when I was 40, I took the role in the [Royal] Shakespeare Company. It was my first experience to speak in English in front of live audiences. I was so scared. It was my biggest challenge in my life. But I have learned [that] mixing culture and to make something new is so interesting. It’s difficult, of course, but very important to the future for me, I thought. Then I started searching [for] international projects. Then I got the audition for “The Last Samurai.” That was my first Hollywood movie. So if I had no experience with the Shakespeare, I never would have auditioned for “The Last Samurai.”
Finnie: And how it’s all kind of connected in some way — the modeling, starting there, being 5. 1966 was “A game of Chance.” When I think about that stretch of that career, the easy question I think would be like, “How different is your approach to film and to your process?” But I’m actually curious, like how similar is your approach from 1965, 1966? How are you still approaching being on set, getting into character, learning about the characters?
Sanada: I believe now is most similar [to] a child actor. I mean, [in your] 20s, [you are] learning a lot, [in your] 30s [you are] learning from the directors, the actors, and then try to, you know, get the technique or something. Showing the technique. That kind of period I had, of course. But especially this one, “Shōgun,” I’m producing as well. So before, I’m standing in front of the camera, I prepare everything, you know, from the script, staffing, casting, rehearsing, coaching, everything. As an actor I felt so free, freed up. Maybe just be there as a character and then react to others. It’s a very simple, basic thing, but because I’ve done producing and spend seven years before starting shooting, that’s why I could relax and just be there. Just enjoy.
When I was a kid, maybe my second movie, there was a snowy set. I’ve shot in the snow, real snow, before going to the set. So I knew how cold it is. On set, there is cotton or salt — fake snow is there. In one scene, my [character’s] father hit [him]. [My character was] not guilty, but he misunderstood and hit me. [My character] said, “I hate you father and ran into the snow.” Rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, and then I went out [into] the fake snow. But for the first [take], he hit me really hard and I was almost crying. “I hate you father!” And then I grabbed shoes and then went into the fake snow. That maybe reminded me of the cold outside, after [getting] really hit and then really hat[ing] him. It was my first improvisation. But everyone enjoyed and then applauded me. And this time, as Toranaga, reacting to others with an empty mind.
Finnie: It’s very stoic… it’s interesting because there’s obviously the novel, there’s the ‘80s series and there’s this series, and they’re all the same story but have different nuances. And your character wasn’t always as stoic. So I’m curious for you, in coming to this project — like you said, seven years before a shooting — what was it about this version of the story that you that made you initially want to be a part of “Shōgun” in this space?
Sanada: It was a great experience. You know, first of all, I accepted the project as an actor. A few years later, Justin [Marks] and Rachel [Kondo], the creators, came in.
Finnie: And this is your first time producing, correct?
Sanada: Yes. First time in my life. Almost 60 years later and the first time producing. So I was like a newborn baby every day on set, checking everything before crew and cast came in. And I really enjoyed it, [being involved] in the creation from the beginning or from zero. Then shooting, shooting, shooting…. Tried to get the best shot every day. And I never felt tired.
Finnie: You were inspired, that’s probably why.
Sanada: Some energy came into my body.
Finnie: It’s producer energy. We just know you can’t sleep.
Sanada: And when other actors get applause, I’m so happy, like a parent. More than people applauding my performance. So every shot I checked the monitors and thought, “Yes! Yes! Yes!”
Finnie: How how would you say that your, your cumulative experience of acting helped you as a producer to understand even the role of producing better?
Sanada: Especially after “The Last Samurai” — during “The Last Samurai” as well — I consulted about my culture. And then the director asked me to remain for the post-production and check all the dailies and then screenings and then take notes. So that was the beginning of training as a producer. So after that, every single project, TV or movie, I tried to make as authentic as possible. Like “Minamata” with Johnny Depp. I had a headset and checked everything: dialogue, extras, movement. So those kinds of experiences helped me. But I felt a limit to correct things as an actor and this time got a title of producer.
Finnie: You’re like, I have permission to do this now.
Sanada: So much easier. Doing same thing, but not alone. I could hire a Japanese specialist [in] samurai movies for each department. I had a team. Before I’ve done everything by myself. Now I have a team. Much, much easier and so much fun. People listening to me and peacefully, we can, correct everything. “Oh, my gosh, this is the meaning of title.” Like Toranaga though about the title of Shōgun. He thought he didn’t need in. But finally [he realized], “Without title, I cannot make a peaceful era.”
Finnie: It’s fascinating to me because I think about the journey and the evolution of the of the series, but also the journey and evolution of the script. Because I know that 70% of the show is in Japanese and needed to be and wanted to be for it to be authentic and representative, but also that the script went through so many different journeys. The script was written, then it was translated, and once it was translated some of the things weren’t landing as one had thought.
Sanada: It was so much fun. Back and forth many times: English, Japanese, English, Japanese. So first of all, first draft Justin sent to me. I checked, you know, all the sterotypical [material] or little misunderstandings. Cut, cut, cut. I put the note, then writers’ room fixed it. And if it’s OK, let’s translate to Japanese. And translated script went to the drama writer, the period drama specialist. And then I checked that and corrected some words and then re-translated because sometimes we have to change the way to say —
Finnie: Like the context.
Sanada: And then Justin needed to know what they translated. And then from that, they arranged again to respect our way [of speaking] and put it into the English version of the script. Those kinds of things happened maybe six or seven times for each episode.
Finnie: You also shot in order, in sequence, as well, correct? Do you prefer shooting in order? Is that easier as an actor?
Sanada: Yeah, basically. But sometimes, we don’t care. Sometimes, you shoot the ending scene first, then middle, then beginning. We know the goal. So we can calculate. And then take a contrast and balance dynamics. So that’s not a bad way. But basically we shot by order.
Finnie: What I find interesting is, in the novel and then in the series in the ‘80s, I feel like Blackthorne was a lead character. And I feel what was different about this one, which I loved, is that like he was one of many characters instead of just the lead. And also his relationship with Toranaga, I think it was just so interesting. Every episode I was like, “Do they like each other? Do they love each other? They’re saving each other’s lives. They’re friends but not friends.” I was just curious about the relationship and what that aspect was like.
Sanada: We didn’t discuss much. Minimum conversation before shooting and then little by little, episode by episode, we created the chemistry, in an organic way. Not trying to calculate how much, at [any] point, [to highlight] friendship or hate. We never talked about that, just felt each other and then created friendship in real, little by little, organic. We both accepted it without word.
Finnie: Toranaga is just one of many characters. You also have Anna Sawai playing Lady Mariko. Everybody was upset when she died in the episode, like “Nooooooo!”
I’m just curious what the what the energy was like on set with the cast, because like you said, you felt everything. You didn’t have all of these conversations before, so it felt as an audience, reading it and watching it and seeing it, it felt so organic. So I’m just curious about, like, the chemistry with the entirety of the cast.
Sanada: Mariko’s role is the most important role in Season 1. Her death is in the novel, of course, so everybody had to expect it. And especially episode nine, I had no scenes as Toranaga, [but] I was on set every day as a producer to Anna. She was always asking me about the dialogue because it’s Shakespeare Japanese — hard to her, first experience speaking that. So every weekend we had a Zoom and taught her the rhythm, intonation, subtext. And on set, she was a boxer. I was her second. Episode nine is one of my favorite because I was involved [as a] pure producer, no acting. So I could be on set every single scene. Talk to ninjas, talk to young actors. So much fun. I’m so proud of her. Her talent and effort. Mentally. Physically.
Finnie: She had to be like multilingual, multicultured and then had to fight. There’s so many different elements to find someone to really embody that role and for it to feel as comfortable as it did with her.
Sanada: She never gave up.
Finnie: We talk about the research and the authenticity that I think is required, having a real cultural, historical element to this. How important was that, for you being a producer in this space, to make sure that it was representative as as authentic as it could possibly bee.
Sanada: This is based on the novel, and the novel is inspired by real history and models. But the novel itself, and this show itself is, entertainment. And we created our original way — fictional entertainment. That’s why we needed to create authenticity as much as possible to make the story and the character believable. It’s a service to the audience, we thought.
Finnie: What would you say is the biggest challenge? Because I know you didn’t shoot in Japan — you shot in Vancouver and during the pandemic.
Sanada: Pandemic. No shooting in Japan because of pandemic. That was different from the first plan.
Finnie: But adjusted accordingly. It’s fine.
Sanada: Luckily we finished the shooting. And also 70% Japanese dialogue with subtitles was kind of challenging, but we believed [in] the audience, their intelligence and their imagination. You know, they can research everything nowadays.
Finnie: In a matter of seconds.
Sanada: Different from ‘80s. And also we put the Japanese lenses in the script. Not only blue eyes lenses. We had our own way to show this story to the world, more easy to understand and also more detailed. We had a great, fantastic reaction from the audiences, more than we expected.
Finnie: And I think what’s interesting is there’s a built-in audience, I believe, obviously from the novel, who understand the historical context. There’s a built-in audience from the individuals who maybe understood the series. But then you also have a brand new audience. There’s also an audience that doesn’t know the context and only knows like, “This looks amazing. It sounds amazing. The characters are so good,” and really understanding from that perspective. So I think the audience is even expanded beyond. But I’m curious, were you overwhelmed by the outpouring of love and support?
Sanada: So many novel fans, ‘80s original drama fans there, plus young audiences, newcomers. So that helped us a lot I believe leave. And then all the fan wants to see, “What’s the difference?”
Finnie: Somebody just wants something to talk about.
Sanada: We were lucky all of them supported us. So I’d like to say thank you for all the viewers in the world.
Finnie: And not only the audience as fans, but also your peers in the Television Academy as well. I was just so curious, on Emmy nomination morning, what was that like for you all to see — and record-breaking, by the way.
Sanada: Oh my goodness, yes. 25 nominations.
Finnie: Did you think it would be that like?
Sanada: I would never have imagined when we shot in Vancouver in the rain. More than I expected. So I’m so proud of my crew and cast. It was a great surprise for me. I’m so happy. Even just nomination is crazy — so big for me. I don’t know what’s going to happen on the day, but I don’t care. It’s happy enough for now.
Finnie: One of the things that I really appreciate about the series are the themes. Fate I feel like I was introduced like even in the first episode, and you saw that interwoven into the entire thing as well. So I’m just curious, for you personally, what is your stance on fate? Even Lady Mariko’s like, we live in and we die and that’s just it. And then other characters really believe that you could bend fate. I’m just curious, what’s your idea of fate?
Sanada: Here is already fate for me. I started as a child actor and then and all these things happened and then now. All the experience in my life brought me here. All experience supported me and trained me. So I’d like to say thank you for everyone in my life I met and experienced…. Everything’s connected and brought me here.
Finnie: And I feel like I closely relate to that, as I think many people do as it relates to just — things line up…. All of these little moments that accumulate towards big moments.
Sanada: All the hints and some inspiration from someone, something — everything came into my DNA.
Finnie: Before we wrap, would you consider just producing or would you consider in your next role that you want to be a producer, now understanding it and having the title as we talked about?
Sanada: I’d like to be both sometimes, like this time. Sometimes just concentrate for the acting. Or sometimes just as a producer. All depends, on the script or project. If I think I need to produce, I’ll do it. But I’d love to do both.
Finnie: Something tells me, with the success of what “Shōgun” has already been and what it will continue to be past the Emmys, that you will definitely get more than enough opportunity to continue to do that.
